{"id":744,"date":"2005-04-01T11:26:00","date_gmt":"2005-04-01T15:26:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/wp\/2005\/04\/01\/dave-orchard-begs-for-technical-arguments-in-soa-vs-rest\/"},"modified":"2022-02-25T06:40:57","modified_gmt":"2022-02-25T10:40:57","slug":"dave-orchard-begs-for-technical-arguments-in-soa-vs-rest","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/2005\/04\/dave-orchard-begs-for-technical-arguments-in-soa-vs-rest\/","title":{"rendered":"Dave Orchard begs for technical arguments in SOA vs. REST"},"content":{"rendered":"Dave writes;<\/a>;\n
\nIn the Web services vs REST debate, the sad part is that the communities are not coming closer together. There are things that could be done for Web services to integrate with REST<\/a> but few people from either camp are jumping up and down.<\/blockquote>\nLet me ask this, what’s the middle ground between a position which\nsays “Interface constraints are required for Internet scale distributed\nsystems”, and one which says “Service specific interfaces are required\nfor Internet scale distributed systems”?\n\nIMO, there is none. “Support both”, which is how I’d characterize\nDave’s many well intentioned efforts to bridge the divide, is\nnot<\/em> a middle ground, since supporting both requires rejecting\nthe interface constraint. Either that, or you’re talking about\nsupporting two distinct architectural styles, which is the aforementioned\ndivide.\n\nPractically though – in terms of the many specs being developed, I think\nthe only middle ground is RESTful SOAP, which isn’t so much in the middle\nfrom a REST POV (since it is REST), but is from a Web POV, in that SOAP\nwould be used to extend the Web rather than walk all over it. FWIW, that\nposition is what I’ve been fighting for since I joined the XMLP WG. I’m\nreally quite a moderate. 8-)\n\nHe ends;\n
\n[…]I call on technical people to engage in deeply technical debates and less on “marketing” campaigns.<\/blockquote>\nOuch! 8-O There’s\ncertainly been some “non” and poor technical arguments made on the REST side (as I\nmentioned publicly<\/a>, I didn’t care too much for one of Carlos’\nposts<\/a> on the topic),\nbut by and large the arguments have been entirely technical! I’ve certainly\nprimarily used technical arguments over the past five years.\n\nIt is to Dave’s (enormous) credit that he made the effort to\ndescribe SOA as an architectural style<\/a>,\nbut he’s been the only Web service proponent who’s even attempted to use the\nlanguage of\nsoftware architecture<\/a>\nto defend his position (even if I often disagree with him when he does).\nBut notice how his efforts never made it into the\nWeb Services Architecture document<\/a>!\nWhat does that say about the aggregate respect for software architecture by the\nWG? Oodles, IMO.\n\nThe truth is that there’s already been a whole lot of technical debate, some\nof it even fruitful. The camps have just agreed to disagree, insofar as\nWeb services proponents argue, in effect or actuality, that either a) the\narchitectural properties that SOA doesn’t have that REST does, aren’t important\nto Internet based systems, or b) that SOA does not have less of some\narchitectural properties as REST proponents claim, digital marketing services<\/a>.\n\nI’d also like to remind Dave how we got to this point. Web services were\ncreated because it was felt that Web architecture wasn’t sufficient to\nintegrate disparate applications together over the Internet. Actually,\nthat’s not quite right. The explanation that seems to better reflect reality\nis that the Web was never considered<\/em> as a platform suitable for\nmeeting the objectives of Web services, as can be demonstrated by the\nnumerous articles talking about how Web services evolved from the likes\nof CORBA, DCOM, RMI, etc.., without\nmentioning the Web!! The Web just didn’t resemble what folks knew a\ndistributed computing solution to look like, so it just never registered\nin the heads to consider it. Well, the myth of the Web being unsuitable\nhas been largely dispelled by now. The big question then, I’d say, is\nwhy haven’t the implications of this – that Web services exist – been\nrevised as a result<\/em>?","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"Dave writes;; In the Web services vs REST debate, the sad part is that the communities are not coming closer together. There are things that could be done for Web services to integrate with REST but few people from either camp are jumping up and down. Let me ask this, what’s the middle ground between […]","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[22,26,40],"class_list":["post-744","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-rest","tag-soap","tag-xml"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/744","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=744"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/744\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=744"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=744"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.markbaker.ca\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=744"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}